New club forming and needs a 2-33

Please call 972-754-1893

Jim Callaway

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 5:45:11 AM UTC+12, wrote:
> New club forming and needs a 2-33

Noooooooo.

35 or 40 year old Grob twins are pretty cheap at this point, and infinitely better.

Agreed! ANYTHING but a 2-33!

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 3:44:42 PM UTC-4, Fox Two wrote:
> Agreed! ANYTHING but a 2-33!

Ever note how many 2-33's stay for sale very long?
Or even how many show up for sale.
Reason- They are working and keep on working.
We operate 2-33's in our club and they fly pretty much all day.
The alternative of a Grob twin that is 35 years old and likely will need a refinish is not quite as attractive as one might think, especially at twice the cost.
UH

> Ever note how many 2-33's stay for sale very long?
> Or even how many show up for sale.

- Ever wondered how many people turned away from joining clubs and away from soaring because they weren't interested in muscle-fliers? I know a few...

GK

Ever wondered why "basic learners" dropped out of soaring because they, "learned in glass" but didn't want to move to something they could afford or felt like they made a "back step"?
Hmmmmmmm?

Part of why we do primary in a 2-33, solo, then 1-26, then move to 1-34. Yes, at some point the ASK-21 comes in, but fly first, learn to find/use thermals second, move from there.

My perspective since the early '70's, still valid in lots of places in the US today.

Oh, BTW, almost ANY A&P in the US can fix an aluminum/"tube and fabric" glider when it gets pranged, glass/composite is usually a waiting list and NOT local.

>> Ever note how many 2-33's stay for sale very long? Or even how many show
>> up for sale.
>
> - Ever wondered how many people turned away from joining clubs and away
> from soaring because they weren't interested in muscle-fliers? I know a
> few...
>

Geez, is it winter already in the northern hemisphere? Let the religious wars
begin!

BTW, I don't know the O.P., but as he's a 2-diamond pilot from the mid/late
1970s (SSA member database; I checked), I reckon he's well aware of the pros &
cons of whatever ship he's/they're seeking for a new club startup. Personally,
I hope he finds what he's looking for, and that new club can grow into lasting
health!

Bob W.

P.S. Please send $100, cash preferred, to learn my opinion on club decisions
about which I know pretty much nothing. :)

On Tuesday, 26 July 2016 11:45:11 UTC-6, wrote:
> New club forming and needs a 2-33
>
> Please call 972-754-1893
>
> Jim Callaway

est of luck finding the glider/equipment you need and CONGRATULATIONS on forming a new club. We need more participation in the sport and it begins at the local level

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:56:28 AM UTC+12, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Ever wondered why "basic learners" dropped out of soaring because they, "learned in glass" but didn't want to move to something they could afford or felt like they made a "back step"?
> Hmmmmmmm?

No, in fact I've never observed that.

The largest cost in any beginner's gliding is the aerotows. The glider which gives you the most time in the air is better value even if it cost a little more. And that's glass in all but the most benign CUs-popping-everywhere windless flat land conditions.

Why I've seen people drop out is inability to do anything but float around the home field, and gliders with decent performance existing in the club but not available until you've done a gazillion hours despite them NOT ACTUALLY BEING ANY MORE DIFFICULT TO FLY (just a little different).

When I learned to fly, I literally dropped out for a number of years because of a requirement to accumulate I think 30 hours solo in the over-booked Blaniks before progressing to a single seater.

Now, with the club training in DG1000, people are let lose in a glass single seater after five solo flights and five hours -- which come up very easily.

I visited a busy field in the US in 2004 wanting to fly. All the 2-33's were busy so I suggested taking one of the half dozen Grobs that were tied down -- and in which I'd been passenger rated for a decade in NZ. I was told it was impossible because none of the ten INSTRUCTORS present on the field was rated in the Grob. WTF. Also I wanted to overfly another town about 20 km away, but was told "We don't do cross country on rides".

Luckily there was another operation nearby which was happy to take my money for a flight in an ASK21. First thermal off tow took us to 11000 ft and we cruised over to my desired photo destination and back without taking another turn.

"Muscle flyers"? It's been quite a long time, but I recall the 2-33
being quite light on the controls. Maybe because I was younger then...

And needing X hours before flying a glass ship? How about being told
that I would need 10 dual flights before I could fly solo off "The Hill"
in Elmira? This after 10 years of flying solo at some pretty
spectacular places in the Rockies. No wonder I never went back.

Clubs need to cater to the needs of their members. Those that do will
thrive regardless of the type of equipment they fly. Those that don't
will stagnate pretty quickly. I salute the guys starting a new club and
wish them well. I hope they encourage flying rather than spend all
their time thinking up reasons not to.

And how much time to carry passengers? Shouldn't that be a competency
and judgment thing rather than an hours thing? My insurance company
(not the one most SSAers use) demanded I have fully one hour of solo
time in my Stemme before I could carry passengers.

It's not winter yet, but the monsoon is upon us here in New Mexico.
It'll soon pass and we can get back to enjoying our wonderful sport.

On 7/27/2016 3:37 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 10:56:28 AM UTC+12, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
>> Ever wondered why "basic learners" dropped out of soaring because they, "learned in glass" but didn't want to move to something they could afford or felt like they made a "back step"?
>> Hmmmmmmm?
> No, in fact I've never observed that.
>
> The largest cost in any beginner's gliding is the aerotows. The glider which gives you the most time in the air is better value even if it cost a little more. And that's glass in all but the most benign CUs-popping-everywhere windless flat land conditions.
>
> Why I've seen people drop out is inability to do anything but float around the home field, and gliders with decent performance existing in the club but not available until you've done a gazillion hours despite them NOT ACTUALLY BEING ANY MORE DIFFICULT TO FLY (just a little different).
>
> When I learned to fly, I literally dropped out for a number of years because of a requirement to accumulate I think 30 hours solo in the over-booked Blaniks before progressing to a single seater.
>
> Now, with the club training in DG1000, people are let lose in a glass single seater after five solo flights and five hours -- which come up very easily.
>
> I visited a busy field in the US in 2004 wanting to fly. All the 2-33's were busy so I suggested taking one of the half dozen Grobs that were tied down -- and in which I'd been passenger rated for a decade in NZ. I was told it was impossible because none of the ten INSTRUCTORS present on the field was rated in the Grob. WTF. Also I wanted to overfly another town about 20 km away, but was told "We don't do cross country on rides".
>
> Luckily there was another operation nearby which was happy to take my money for a flight in an ASK21. First thermal off tow took us to 11000 ft and we cruised over to my desired photo destination and back without taking another turn.

--
Dan, 5J

Jim:
Hope you find a nice one. Try the guys at K&L Soaring in Elmira.

Kid goes up to his power pilot father and says, "Dad, I'd like to learn to fly in a J3 Cub". Father says, "That's great, perfect plane to learn on, rugged honest, an great foundation to build on"

Kid goes up to his glider pilot father and says. "Dad I'd like to learn to fly in a 2-33." Father says, "God no!, 60 year old technology! Logy, ugly, and no performance - anything but a 2-33"

I just can't figure it out. Never have. Never will.

Roy (+3000 hours CFIG, +65,000 XC kms, soloed on a 2-22)

On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 6:35:45 AM UTC+12, Roy B. wrote:
> Jim:
> Hope you find a nice one. Try the guys at K&L Soaring in Elmira.
>
> Kid goes up to his power pilot father and says, "Dad, I'd like to learn to fly in a J3 Cub". Father says, "That's great, perfect plane to learn on, rugged honest, an great foundation to build on"
>
> Kid goes up to his glider pilot father and says. "Dad I'd like to learn to fly in a 2-33." Father says, "God no!, 60 year old technology! Logy, ugly, and no performance - anything but a 2-33"
>
> I just can't figure it out. Never have. Never will.
>
> Roy (+3000 hours CFIG, +65,000 XC kms, soloed on a 2-22)

Design age is hardly the sole criteria. The 2-33 is from about 1965. So is the ASK-13, a vastly better sailplane. The Ka-7 and L-13 are 5 - 10 years older again, and also much better than the 2-33.

Once the L-13 spar has been fixed anyway, though I don't think any failed in non Red Bull use? Can you even imagine a high profile extreme sports sponsor using the 2-33 for an aerobatic display team? I thought not.

(apologies for any beverages that may have just been forcibly expelled on to keyboards)

I've never flown a J3 but I've done a number of circuits and a little bit of cross country (as student pilot) and back country (as pax) in 150 and 180 cubs. And a couple of times in Tiger Moths, for that matter. Superb aircraft, both, and remembered and loved many decades after their contemporaries have been scrapped and forgotten for good reason.

Show me an apron with a Cub, a C152, and a Tomahawk and suggest we go for a fly ... it's not even close ... I'll take the Cub any day. Same cruise speed, far shorter takeoff and better climb rate and angle. Just way more fun. There's no downside. (ok, maybe fuel burn)

Bruce - My point may have been too subtle. Cruise speed and climb of a C65 J3 Cub (I owned a '41 for many years) is not even close to a 150 or a Tomahawk.

My point: The 2-33 is the Cub of gliding. But it never gets the respect that the Cub gets (and it should).

ROY

"Can you even imagine a high profile extreme sports sponsor using the 2-33 for an aerobatic display team? I thought not."

I can't. Just like I can't imagine a NASCAR driver borrowing my '99 Ford Ranger to drive in the truck series...but it got me back and forth to gliderport to fly a 2-33 just fine.

J3 Cub - so safe that it cab just /barely/ kill you. And what fun to fly!

:-D

On 7/27/2016 12:35 PM, Roy B. wrote:
> Jim:
> Hope you find a nice one. Try the guys at K&L Soaring in Elmira.
>
> Kid goes up to his power pilot father and says, "Dad, I'd like to learn to fly in a J3 Cub". Father says, "That's great, perfect plane to learn on, rugged honest, an great foundation to build on"
>
> Kid goes up to his glider pilot father and says. "Dad I'd like to learn to fly in a 2-33." Father says, "God no!, 60 year old technology! Logy, ugly, and no performance - anything but a 2-33"
>
> I just can't figure it out. Never have. Never will.
>
> Roy (+3000 hours CFIG, +65,000 XC kms, soloed on a 2-22)
>

--
Dan, 5J

On 7/27/2016 3:45 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
<Snip...>

> ...Can you even imagine a high profile extreme sports
> sponsor using the 2-33 for an aerobatic display team? I thought not.

Hey, in the airshow business, "different" equates directly to "memorable" and
"bookable." The problem may be not on the sponsor side, but the creation side.

I think it would be a major hoot to see (say) 2-33's performing roped-together
wingtip-to-wingtip aerobatics. Memorable for all? Dambetcha!!! (Born after
WW-II, I missed seeing such pre-WW-II bipe fighter exhibitions. Remember
Claire Chennault?)

"Anybody" can fly high-power aerobatics or energy-retaining, clean-sailplane
aerobatics. It takes real skill and manly men to fly aerobatics in J-3 Cubs
and draggy sailplanes. :)

I'll get started removing the 2-33's lawyer-inspired aerobatic restrictions
first thing tomorrow!!!

Bob W.